Here's the transcript from Show 153 of weekly Outside The Lines - Personal Protest

	SUN., MARCH 2, 2003
	Host: Bob Ley, ESPN. Reported by: Kelly Neal, ESPN. Guests: Tommie Smith, 1968 U.S. Olympic gold medalist; Dave Meggysey, former NFL player and author; Sherri Coales, head coach, Oklahoma women's basketball.

BOB LEY - It is the sound and the sight that opens sporting events, an American tradition. Just as protest, is an American right. When the two collide, the images and memories are stark. An Olympic protest for black power, an attempted on-field flag burning thwarted, an NBA player, during the National Anthem, praying, rather than facing the flag, and now, with the nation braced for war, a small college basketball player stages a lone protest.

TONI SMITH, MANHATTANVILLE SENIOR FORWARD - I think too often people blindly stand-up and salute the flag without thinking about all of the things it means.

JERRY KILEY, U.S. SERVICEMAN - Toni Smith disgraced this flag and disrespected the veterans who have fought and died.

LEY - Today on Outside The Lines, what Toni Smith's personal protest means for players, for coaches, and for all Americans.

For those of a certain age, the Toni Smith controversy evokes emotional images of a turbulent time in American history. For others, well, rest assured the tempest we are seeing around the college basketball player was, for a time in the 1960s, the way that Americans largely talked to each other on social issues. There is very much a sporting dimension to this story. Issues for coaches of team cohesion, for players of loyalty to a teammate, and for all, whether the field of play is the place for such a statement.

Among my guests this is morning, a man whose Olympic protest became one of the most historic images of the 20th century. I'll talk with Tommie Smith. And we will have the results of a scientific poll of Americans on this issue raised because of the global impact of an impending war and the simple actions of a young woman on a small college basketball team. Kelly Neal shows us the ripples her action is causing.

SMITH - I think too often people blindly stand up and salute the flag.

AMERICAN MALE OPPOSING SMITH'S VIEW - Go live somewhere else for a couple years and then come back and let me know how grave you think it is.

AMERICAN FEMALE OPPOSING SMITH'S VIEW - It's deplorable.

AMERICAN MALE OPPOSING SMITH'S VIEW - There's a lot of people that have died for that flag.

AMERICAN MALE OPPOSING SMITH'S VIEW - This flag does not stand for government policy.

SMITH - My doing this was only to accomplish my own satisfaction.

KELLY NEAL, ESPN CORRESPONDENT - What Toni Smith also accomplished was setting off a national debate. The senior captain says she never thought her silent protest, turning away from the flag during the anthem, would spark actual protests outside of her games. The school received thousands of e-mails, some urging her to be used as a human shield in Iraq. But Smith says America's impending war with Iraq was just part of her motivation.

SMITH - There are many inequalities in this country, which I hope people are aware of. Basically being that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. And there are a lot of things that aren't addressed in this country because our priorities are elsewhere.

NEAL - Smith's protests began to attract attention in mid January from some fans, parents, and teammates. Manhattanville head coach Shawn Lincoln decided to call a team meeting.

SHAWN LINCOLN, MANHATTANVILLE HEAD COACH - I do have to deal with players that have different opinions and I need to make sure that they feel comfortable coming to me to be able to talk to me about whatever it is that's bothering them or whatever concerns that they have. And if I throw my support in one direction or another, I could end up losing part of my team.

LATASHA CARLOS, MANHATTANVILLE SENIOR GUARD/FORWARD - We've been to many different schools where they've taunted her and they've said nasty things to her. And I mean, I know for me, I probably wouldn't have been able to do it. I probably would have cried.

But she really kept her composure and I'm proud of her.

ASHLEY CARR, MANHATTANVILLE SOPHOMORE FORWARD - A lot of people have come up to me and asked -- they don't really ask me how I feel. They just assume that I have the same opinion as her, and that's just been hard for me to deal with because I feel strongly in the opposite direction.

NEAL - Lincoln also consulted with Manhattanville president Richard Berman. When Berman was an undergraduate at Michigan, he protested the Vietnam War.

What's your thought on the fact that she's using the college team and using the university to make a public stance on such a private issue?

RICHARD BERMAN, MANHATTANVILLE COLLEGE PRESIDENT - I don't think she's using the college. I think one of the advantages of a great, strong academic community is one that encourages individuals to speak out. This is quiet. This is non-disruptive. This is legal. And we need to support it.

NEAL - But with the threat of an impending war, Lincoln realized there might be a problem on February 11, when Manhattanville traveled here, to Kingspoint, New York, to face the United States Merchant Marine Academy. Three of the academy's players are scheduled to be shipped out in two weeks to undetermined locations. Midshipmen turned out in full force for the game and supported their team and their flag.

LINCOLN - The freshman class came out with flags on poles and they were standing on the sidelines, and they lined the entire sideline with American flags and stood there at attention throughout the game.

NEAL - How did that affect Toni?

LINCOLN - I think more than anything it focused her on the game.

SMITH - The flag means to me; first, it means it stands for the millions and millions of indigenous people who were massacred to claim it. It means the millions of those enslaved in order to build it up. And it means the millions of those who are still oppressed in order for it to prosper. It also does stand for those who fought. They gave their lives in order for this country to prosper, but I don't think that for any specific purpose I should compromise my beliefs to accommodate people's personal offenses towards their family or however they feel defending them.

NEAL - St. Joseph's senior guard Sarah Ecke is one of those people. Since September 11, her father has been serving in Kuwait.

SARAH ECKE, ST. JOSEPH'S SENIOR GUARD - As soon as she turned her head, it made me think of my dad. Got me really upset. Every day when I warm up I wear an army t-shirt that he gave me, because it reminds me of him; It's the only way he can come to games with me, and just -- it hurts my feelings. She just disrespected me and my father and the fact that he's over there protecting her.

NEAL - Ecke's teammate, Christine Argentina, has a brother who is a corporal in the Marine Corps and is preparing to go overseas. She was so offended by Smith's gesture that she confronted her after their game last month.

CHRISTINE ARGENTINA, ST. JOSEPH'S FRESHMAN GUARD - When we were approaching each other to say good game, I told her to leave the country if she couldn't respect the flag, and she turned around to swing at me or my teammate -- both of us -- and our teams grabbed me, grabbed her and it was over.

NEAL - Smith issued a response through a spokesman. "It seems apparent that Argentina doesn't agree with my stance and that she wants to further negatively portray me. I definitely wouldn't let someone -- just because they oppose my view -- jeopardize my season." Last Sunday in a game against Stevens Tech, a man who says he served in Vietnam, ran onto the court, disrupting the game.

KILEY - Toni Smith disgraced this flag and disrespected the veterans who have fought and died, the women and men, brave women and men, who fought and died to defend the freedom that this flag stands for.

SMITH - I showed support for everyone who died for this country, but I think that if the flag means to you respecting all of those who died fighting for it, you must also acknowledge all of those who were killed to build it up.

NEAL - On Tuesday, Manhattanville doubled campus security and added seven local police officers for their rematch with the Merchant Marine Academy. Since they last faced each other, the academy's assistant coach, Doug Carter, was called up to active duty in the National Guard.

MIKE MURRAY, U.S. MERCHANT MARINE ACADEMY HEAD COACH - There's people like Doug out there that are willing to represent our country and I'm thankful I have people like him that are willing to serve for that flag. She really needs to take a long, hard look at everyone that has served her country and that has given her that freedom.

NEAL - Even Smith's boyfriend got involved with a halftime exchange with fans.

SMITH'S BOYFRIEND - Read the Constitution. Read the Bill of Rights. Read anything. Inform yourself.

NEAL - Smith and the Valiants went on to win by 16 points. Valiant is described as one who exhibits valor or courage. For some, a word used to describe Toni Smith's actions. For others, to describe what the American flag represents.

SMITH - Although many people do oppose what I'm doing, this school hasn't stopped me from doing it. I think that agreeing to be on a team means that you're dedicated to the team's success and dedicated to playing as one, not necessarily all becoming the same person. We are all different, and we all display those differences on the outside and inside. And it's just one of my ways.

LEY - We commissioned a scientific poll to gauge public opinion on Toni Smith's stand. Twenty-two percent of those surveyed support her stance, 78 percent do not. Over 600 Americans were interviewed by Marki-tecture. Interestingly, Smith does not have the support of those who oppose U.S. military action in Iraq. More than 60 percent of those respondents do not support her. And her support is twice as likely to come from those 45 years of age and under.

We welcome Tommie Smith this morning. I mentioned earlier how his black-gloved protest, along with that of bronze medalist John Carlos, one of history's seminal images. Tommie, who just won the 200 meters in world record time when he and Carlos made their political statements on the medals podium. Tommie joins us this morning from Los Angeles. Good morning, Tommie.

TOMMIE SMITH, 1968 OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST - Good morning.

LEY - Sherri Coale is head coach of the Oklahoma Sooners basketball team. She is in her seventh season, and last year took the Sooners to the national championship game, and she joins us this morning from Norman, Oklahoma. Good morning, Sherri.

SHERRI COALE, HEAD COACH, OKLAHOMA SOONERS BASKETBALL TEAM - Good morning.

And Dave Meggysey played six years in the NFL. He wrote, afterwards, the landmark book "Out of Their League." He is the board president of Athletes United for Peace, and he, like Tommie, is up early on the West Coast in San Francisco. Good morning again, Dave.

DAVE MEGGYSEY, BOARD PRESIDENT, ATHLETE'S UNITED FOR PEACE - Morning, Bob.

LEY - And so let's start with you, Tommie. You have been here. What do you make of the public reaction to Toni Smith's stance?

SMITH - Well, Toni claimed an identity, which took 21 years to shape, and I understand her feelings. And my heart goes out to her because she did identify a future that is going to be a challenge to comprehend by a lot.

LEY - She did it on the field of play. Is that the place to make a statement?

SMITH - A place to make a statement is where you have a platform that the constitution implies is legal. And I think she picked the platform, which is tolerated, and I think the tolerance to understand what she did and how she did it, and I think her accusers should take a separate option instead of ridicule.

LEY - All right, Sherri. I know you're on the other side of the issue. You are a head coach. Someone wants to make a stance like this, how do you rectify the rights of the Constitution and the rights of a coach to have a team?

COALE - Well, I think the first thing that a player has to understand is that when she slips on a uniform she represents more than just herself. If a student enrolls at the University of Oklahoma, they are held accountable to a code of conduct that is set forth by the university. If a student athlete plays on my basketball team, she makes a commitment to adhere to the code of conduct that I apply to my team. I think the forum is inappropriate and I think that her teammates are sort of washed in with her viewpoint. And I think that's unfair. The common thread with any successful team is the team comes before the individual. And I think that her action is divisive. I think it makes it very difficult for the team to perform as one.

LEY - David, you played a team sport. What do you make of Sherri's point?

MEGGYSEY - Well, I think Sherri does make a point, but I think there's a larger issue here which is if you introduce the American flag at a sporting event and you introduce the National Anthem at the sporting event, in some sense you politicize that arena, and I have nothing but admiration and respect for what has gone on and what Toni has done, and certainly her dignified protest. One of the main things, the most basic things perhaps that this country stands for, what the flag stands for, what the National Anthem stands for, is our right of choice, is our right to choose to express ourselves. And certainly that includes the right not to salute the flag. After all, the flag belongs to all of us. It just doesn't just belong to those of us who choose to salute it. And if this country is a great country -- and it is a great country -- that is the principle that it stands on, and, I think Toni has committed a wonderful act of patriotism and should be applauded for it.

LEY - Sherri, how would you have dealt with the situation like this?

COALE - Well, as you can see our uniforms hang behind me so I'm not sure an individual that felt that way would necessarily have been enticed to come to our program. We have an American flag on our uniform. So I'm not sure that the issue would arise. But if it did, part of my expectations for my team involves respect, and if an individual on my team did not feel that she could respect the flag, I think perhaps the only workable solution would be for her to remain in the locker room.

MEGGYSEY - Well, I think that not saluting the flag does not disrespect the flag. What the flag stands for is it stands for all of us, and it stands mainly for our right to protest our current government's actions at home, which Toni has done, and the impending war in Vietnam. And to make that point again, the flag stands for all of us and represents all of us, including mainly the right to object and to register objection to our government's actions.

LEY - Tommie?

MEGGYSEY - This is what we stand for.

LEY - I don't want to come in. Tommie.

SMITH - I do believe that a texture of this type rub the fiber of a lot of folks who believe that their reality in this nation is a one-way channel, and that channel is very deep and a lot of people have been drowned in the fiber of that channel. I think Toni Smith took a chance. She took a hierarchy chance of wanting people to understand this flag does represent everyone, and everyone should be represented. I don't think, coach, that because she took this stance on the platform of play like so many of us do, we're showmen, we are show people. So we do things to qualify the attitude and greatnesses of others. I think we should also attempt to qualify ourselves, as a whole and our three-fifths thereof. And I think Toni made a very clear point that I am a human, I can do what the constitution implies, which is freedom of speech, freedom of physical movement, and I think what she did was meaningful for all. Otherwise we have to talk about it.

LEY - But Tommie, we've got some numbers up I'd like to bounce off you from our poll. We asked the question, does the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution provide protection for Toni Smith? Overall, 69 percent said yes. Only 15 percent said no. Interestingly, among those people who support the war in Iraq -- or the impending war in Iraq -- 73 percent of war supporters agree with her first amendment protection, a higher number than overall. What do you make of that?

SMITH - I think that shows the fiber. I think there's a minority of those out there who are still laying in the tomb of the dead. And they matter, but they matter not as much as the majority.

LEY - OK. Well, we are going to step aside for a second. When we do come back, we will have more from our poll on Toni Smith's protest, including, in fact, one of her teammates who is most outspoken about what she sees as the damage that Smith has done to the basketball team.

BETH HICKEY, MANHATTANVILLE SOPHOMORE GUARD - I've been in tears at times. It brings something into basketball that was never there before.

LEY - In our poll of over 600 Americans, we asked whether the Manhattanville coach could forbid Toni Smith from protesting during the National Anthem. Forty-eight percent agreed that he could do so. Twenty-nine percent said no. When we asked whether Toni Smith should be prevented from protesting while she represents her school, 47 percent agreed and 37 percent said no. At least one of Smith's teammates feels the protest has damaged the chemistry on the team. She says she saw that during intense practices.

HICKEY - People are just taking out all their frustration, all their anger about what she was doing on their teammates when we were playing. I mean, when we were scrimmaging, it was like if they were scrimmaging your biggest rival. I mean, people were setting their screens and throwing elbows. I mean, not that that's such a bad thing. I mean, you would only wish that you could play so hard against your teammates, make your teammates better, but at the same time it scares me that someone could get hurt.

LEY - Also last evening we received a written statement from another of Smith's teammates, Courtney Fusz. She said she felt intimidated by the media attention and now wanted to say she opposed Smith's protests, the protest she felt was disrespectful and subjecting her teammates to unwanted ramifications. We continue with Tommie Smith, Dave Meggysey, and with Sherri Coale.

Dave, I know your point is that the flag really shouldn't have a place here in athletics. But let's put that aside for a second. You played a team sport. What about these points the teammates are making, that they're being lumped in and it's changed the whole dynamic here?

MEGGYSEY - Well, I think that's unfortunately the nature of life and that's as much, you know, the product of the media as it is the protest. And as Tommie pointed out, when you're an athlete at some level and you're playing in a public arena, you are a public figure. And that goes with the -- it's part of the baggage that goes with the fact that you're an athlete playing in this arena. As I recall, Toni's protests were not known by the media, until mid-January, and she was just doing this and going along, and then the media got ahold of it and suddenly made it into what it is. But as to whether or not she has the right to do this, of course I believe she has the right to do this. And to say, again, I think it is a very valiant act of patriotism and she should be admired for it.

LEY - Tommie, to what extent do you and John Carlos consider the impact on your fellow Olympians in Mexico City in 1968? You knew there was going to be repercussions.

SMITH - Well, yeah, we knew there was going to be repercussions, and not atypical to Toni. We didn't know how much. We felt a need, because we were asked as a media, on the stage. And once we plowed through the confusion of what people were really asking, we came up with a solution, answer it. But we decided to answer it in a different way, a different way of physical show and not a verbal show. That way people would have the interpretation of their own to later to be decided how they felt, and later John Carlos and I, as we do now, teach this. We live it. We love it. We abide by the constitution. We abided by the flag. We prayed while it was being flown. We didn't turn on it. And we understand that the fiber of this nation is of strength of all, not for just a few as the constitution implies. It was a stand for civil and human rights, which included a stand like Toni's, the rights of all who dared to be wrong. But history doesn't lie. It must be accepted.

LEY - But, Sherri, the dynamics around this team has certainly changed.

COALE - Obviously. And I think it would be very difficult for her teammates to be able to put the team first, which I think is the essence of this issue. When you commit to be a part of a team you make the commitment to have your own selfish desires come secondary. I think whatever she wants to do on her own time in street clothes, when she is on campus, wherever she is, that is certainly her constitutional right. I think the moment that she slips that uniform on she becomes a representative of more than just herself. And to disrespect the flag is to disrespect her teammates.

MEGGYSEY - I don't see it as disrespect, Sherri. I really don't. And the president...

COALE - You don't see her turning her back as disrespect?

MEGGYSEY - The president of the school, as a matter of fact, has supported her right to do this. And maybe they don't do that at Oklahoma but at Manhattanville they do. And that's just a different point of view. We are a pluralistic country. Just because one makes the choice, the free choice, which our constitution guarantees, not to salute the flag does not mean that the flag is disrespected. What is being challenged, and Toni has made this very clear, are the policies of this present government and the impending war in Iraq.

LEY - It is a sports story, it is a political story, it's a social story. I apologize. We are out of time. We could go for a long time. Tommie Smith and Sherri Coale and Dave Meggysey, thank you all for joining us. We appreciate it this morning. It is not an easy question. We appreciate it.

MEGGYSEY - Thank you, Bob.

LEY - Coming up, your reaction to last week's look at marijuana. This former Dallas Cowboy now works for the decriminalization of the drug.

MARK STEPNOSKI, PLAYED 13 SEASONS IN NFL - I enjoy its effects. Why does anybody use any mind-altering substance? Because they like the way it makes them feel.

LEY - Last week we looked at marijuana in sports, and among the e-mails in our inbox, this from Peshtigo, Wisconsin- "If I knew which athletes on my favorite sports teams were smoking pot or drinking excessively, I'd be much less inclined to cheer for them. Why should I spend hundreds of dollars on tickets each season if they are going to do things to themselves that may hinder our team's chances of winning?"

If you missed the program you can check it out online. The keyword, otlweekly at ESPN.com, for our library of transcripts. We anticipate your e-mails on Toni Smith's personal protest. Our address, otlweekly@espn.com, and thanks for being in touch.