Here's the transcript from Show 149 of weekly Outside The Lines - LeBron James

	SUN., FEB. 2, 2003
	Host: Bob Ley, ESPN. Reported by: Jeremy Schaap and Bob Holtzman, ESPN. Guests: Susan Vinella, Cleveland Plain-Dealer; John Lucas, former coach, Cleveland Cavaliers.

ANNOUNCER - February 2, 2003.

DICK VITALE, ESPN/ABC COLLEGE BASKETBALL ANALYST- Are you serious? Are you serious?

BOB LEY, HOST- LeBron James has it all -- talent, celebrity, all the trappings. Everything but his high school eligibility.

DRU JOYCE, HEAD BASKETBALL COACH, ST. VINCENT-ST MARY- I know when I was 18, I made a bunch of errors and mistakes. I wouldn't have wanted a camera or a reporter following me around.

TIM ROGERS, "CLEVELAND PLAIN DEALER"- Someone should have been there to say, 'Whoa, LeBron, slow down.'

LEY- The question, just who is responsible, comes with a variety of answers.

GEORGE TOMPKINS, ST. VINCENT-ST. MARY H.S. FAN- What kid 17, 18 years old wouldn't go and accept two jerseys like that?

ROGERS- I refuse to believe that he's a victim in all of this.

MYLAN MURPHY, LEBRON JAMES FAN- I'm very upset about it, because, I mean, I like him a lot. He's my role model. I look up to him.

LEY- Today on Outside the Lines, what the apparent end of LeBron James' high school career says about teenage sports celebrity.

LeBron James' team has a game later this afternoon, but he will be sitting and watching after being declared ineligible on Friday for accepting two jerseys from a sporting goods store. It was a sudden and unlikely end to this most celebrated high school career, and one that continues to resonate this morning in Akron, Ohio, where Bob Holtzman joins us live. Bob, what's new this morning?

BOB HOLTZMAN, ESPN CORRESPONDENT- Well, Bob, LeBron James will be here in the gym later this afternoon, but at this point he will not be eligible and will not be in uniform.

But we can tell you, however unlikely it may seem, that Clair Muscaro, who is the commissioner of the Ohio High School Athletic Association is in a meeting right now in Columbus. We do not even know, however, if he's discussing the LeBron James' situation. The general feeling here in Akron is that this decision made by the Ohio High School Athletic Association was made too quickly. After all, they spent two weeks investigating LeBron James' birthday gift, the $50,000 Hummer that he received from his mother. They only spent a day investigating this jersey situation. One of the people who thinks the decision was made too quickly, LeBron James' high school basketball coach, Dru Joyce.

JOYCE- It took less than 24 hours to make the judgment, and I don't know. Is that kind of a quick decision without LeBron's family being -- and those who are representing him having a chance to speak.

HOLTZMAN- Another person who is upset with how quickly the decision was made is Robert Rosenthal, who is the owner of the store in the Cleveland area where LeBron James got those two vintage jerseys. Last night Rosenthal issued a statement in which he said, "The Ohio High School Athletic Association has not allowed for a full exploration of all of the relevant circumstances. While Commissioner Muscaro apparently spoke with a shift supervisor at the store who was not involved in any of the transactions, he has not had any substantive conversation with me." Bob, that statement goes on to say that he would be happy to provide any further information to the Ohio High School Athletic Association.

LEY- And you mentioned the head of that group is in a meeting in Columbus. What could be lying ahead if LeBron James wants to appeal within the high school organization?

HOLTZMAN- Well, there's almost no doubt that he will appeal this. The process is that they have to file a written appeal with the board, the Ohio High School Athletic Association Board of Control it's called, which is in Columbus. It's a seven-member board. People all over the state of Ohio. They meet nine times a year. Their next scheduled meeting is February 13. They can call an emergency meeting to hear something like this, at a situation obviously as high profile as LeBron James' situation. They may in fact do that. In order for them to overturn this decision, there would have to be new evidence provided to them and it sounds like there may be in this situation.

LEY- All right, Bob Holtzman live in Akron. Thanks so much.

In five months, even sooner if it's shoe company money, LeBron James will become an 18-year-old basketball millionaire. And then it will be time to look back on this. It will all seem funny. But not now. Not when two replica jerseys did what a $50,000 luxury SUV, a nationwide playing schedule, limousine rides, and network media attention could not -- render LeBron James, the best high school player in the country, ineligible to play at that level. There is irony and anger, and perhaps the great American staple, pending legal action in the latest case study of how exceptional athletic talent creates a halo of celebrity, an orbit of new friends, and the ever-present promise of money, all of which must be managed perfectly.

Jeremy Schaap now considers the end of LeBron James' high school career.

JEREMY SCHAAP, ESPN CORRESPONDENT - LeBron James is a prep superstar unlike any that's jumped before.

HIGH SCHOOL ANNOUNCER- Uh-oh.

ANNOUNCER- Wow!

ANNOUNCER- Alley-oop.

ANNOUNCER- Look out, people. Here we go again.

ANNOUNCER- How many ways does he have left?

SCHAAP- He is a new breed. A magnet for cameras, microphones and magazines. Unlike the free jerseys that have apparently ended his amateur career, he's decidedly not retro. He is the future.

ESPN DIRECTOR- Five, four, three, two, one.

VITALE- Are you serious?

I just watched the best high school player I've ever seen at this stage in high school.

VITALE- Take a look at this.

SCHAAP- For now, though, all of the bright lights have been shut off, or more accurately redirected to the spectacle off the court.

CLAIR MUSCARO, OHSAA COMMISSIONER- The decision was made based on a bylaw dealing with how you can lose your amateur status, be forfeited by capitalizing on your athletic ability, in this particular case there was merchandise involved, which was not paid for.

TOMPKINS- Somebody gave this kid two jerseys. What kid 17 and 18 years old wouldn't go and accept two jerseys like that?

SCHAAP- There's a feeling in some quarters that LeBron James has been unduly punished, victimized by a system eager to tear down the monster it's created. His coach, who perhaps stands to lose more than anything else due to his absence, says that's simply untrue.

JOYCE- The blame is solely where it's at, you know. When you make a decision, there are consequences.

SCHAAP- And when LeBron James makes decisions, they're sure to be scrutinized.

JOYCE- I know when I was 18, I made a bunch of errors and mistakes. I wouldn't have wanted a camera or a reporter following me around all the time.

SCHAAP- Not that James has been a reluctant participant to the creation of his legend. In fact, he's courted the spotlight and at times reveled in it.

LEBRON JAMES- I'm enjoying the ride right now.

SCHAAP- It seems James has been enjoying this ride, which cost his mother more than $50,000. And clearly he's not the only one enjoying his ride on the celebrity express. Newspapers, magazines, and television have all cashed in on his talent. So has his high school.

TOMPKINS- We are all to blame here. Just don't blame it on him, you know. Everybody should stand up and take -- everybody is making money.

SCHAAP- Everyone, apparently, except the owner of the Cleveland store that gave James the retro jerseys. Then again maybe the free publicity will help even the store make money off LeBron James.

MICHAEL MURPHY, ST VINCENT-ST. MARY H.S. FAN- First of all, it smells as a setup. The person that gave these gifts, I'm sure they fully, you know, knew what they were doing.

SCHAAP- The question remains, however, did James know what he was doing?

JAMES- Whatever you all want to give us, we're taking.

SCHAAP- James wasn't talking about the jerseys or the Hummer. He was talking about the hype that's been lavished on him. Tim Rogers of the "Cleveland Plain Dealer" has covered James throughout his high school career.

ROGERS- I can't imagine what it would have been like to be 18 years old and have all of this just thrown upon you. But at the same time he's been involved in it, you know, and he knew what was going on. He knew exactly what was at stake.

SCHAAP- Some say that what's been at stake is nothing less than the integrity of amateur sports, which has perhaps been compromised by the intensity of the media coverage of James.

ROGERS- To blame the media is ludicrous. I mean, all we do is report what we see, what we know, what people tell us. We just do -- in essences, we just do our jobs.

SCHAAP- Rogers says it's clear who is to blame for James' current predicament.

ROGERS- Somebody should have been there to say, 'Whoa, LeBron. Slow down. Let's analyze this.' I think you have to look at LeBron's support staff, the people around him, and I think LeBron has to take, like I said, LeBron has to take some responsibility here. There is some culpability on his part, for sure. I refuse to believe that he's a victim in all of this.

SCHAAP- Regardless of the disqualification, within a few months James is likely to be a multimillionaire. But back on the streets of Akron where fans long for a championship, LeBron's legend, like the old jersey, has been at least slightly frayed.

MURPHY- I'm very upset about it because -- I mean, I like him a lot. He's my role model. I look up to him. I have the same basketball number as him. I'm just upset about it.

LEY- Jeremy Schaap reporting. Tom Friend of "ESPN the Magazine" spent time in Akron with LeBron James and in the atmosphere surrounding the youngster. He joins us, Tom does, this morning, live from San Diego. Good morning, Tom. Give me an idea...

TOM FRIEND, ESPN THE MAGAZINE - Morning, Bob.

LEY- ... from your six days on the ground in Akron what that orbit of celebrity and basketball and impending wealth is like.

FRIEND- I'll never forget the first time LeBron walked into the gym when I was there. He came out singing Jay-Z at the top of his lungs, "I do what I want to do." And he does do what he wants to do. You know, that's what he's sort of living like. The mom, she's the biggest thing involved in this. Gloria James. She had LeBron when she was 16 years old -- boyfriend in high school -- and she was around a lot as a kid, but he had to move around. He moved seven times before he was, you know, 5 years old. He had to move around and it got hard for LeBron. He didn't even go to school in fourth grade. And Gloria, she wasn't there a lot.

When he was playing basketball as a kid, you know, AAU -- 10, 11, 12 years old -- she wasn't at games. He was looking up in the stands for her. She's loud. She -- when she did start coming to games she would scream and yell and run out on the floor if somebody fouled him hard. And this is one side of it. And Eddie Jackson, another guy, he was sort of the surrogate dad. And with Eddie, Eddie would let LeBron have whatever he wanted. Eddie would let LeBron drive his Navigator.

That's what I noticed right off the bat. Eddie got him a Ford Explorer. I asked LeBron where he got the Explorer. He said, well, I got it at a house sale. But he was given it to by -- Eddie gave him the car. So, you're right, giving going on, a lot of enabling. He really didn't have much discipline, I noticed. And the only place he got discipline as a kid was when he moved in with the Walkers, Frankie and Pam Walker. This is the kind of situation he needed. He needed people who were going to discipline him. This was when he was like in fifth grade. Then he left them and sort of drifted away.

But there were times when Frankie would see LeBron curse in front of women or do something that he shouldn't have done, and Frankie would pull him outside and say, 'Listen, you're not going to do that. You're not going to be disrespectful.' And he -- LeBron had never had that kind of discipline, and he needed it. But over these last couple, three years, the Walkers haven't had as much of an impact with LeBron. And that's where maybe you see some of the slippage.

LEY- You talked about the giving that goes on. Now the big controversy of the moment involves antique replica jerseys. You were there back in the fall. Tell me a story.

FRIEND- Well, I asked LeBron what was in his closet. He said he had a lot of Timberlands, you know, Nikes, Adidas, and so forth, but he also said he had throwback jerseys. And I said, what's your favorite throwback jersey? And he said, the Wes Unseld throwback -- red, white and blue.

So the kid already had it. What was he going to this place and getting another one? I don't know. He was -- talked about how it was his favorite jersey, it went with everything he wore. He has a lot of these jerseys, has the Joe Namath jersey, he has the Abdul-Jabbar jersey, Jerry West, and so on and so on. So this isn't new. I don't know how many jerseys this kid has and I don't know if he paid for them all. I am not accusing him of anything. But this is a kid who doesn't have a job. His mom said she doesn't work. The only way he was getting money was Eddie Jackson was giving him money or his mom was giving him money. Where are they getting the money

LEY- All right.

FRIEND- So, the mom is complaining about how he had to pay $40 bucks for a parking permit at school. So now she can go out and get a $50,000 loan. So it's all kind of -- it's hard to understand.

LEY- Quick question surrounding this impending number one draft pick. Tom, hold on for a second. We will have you rejoin the balance of our panel. When we continue, I'll be talking with John Lucas, former head coach of the Cavaliers who knows this youngster well, and with the reporter who broke the story of the infamous free jerseys.

MUSCARO- In this particular case there was merchandise involved -- was not paid for. I think the retail value was approximately $850. And so accordingly on the basis of the information in my investigation, I ruled accordingly, the by-law was violated.

LEY- The explanation last Friday as to why LeBron James was declared ineligible to play high school basketball. That merchandise, the jerseys, was returned to the store in question, according to James' coach, even before the announcement on Friday.

Joining us now the former coach of the Cleveland Cavaliers, John Lucas, who knows LeBron James. And John joins us this morning from Houston. Susan Vinella of the Cleveland Plain Dealer broke the story of the jerseys that has led us to this point. She's been on the LeBron James' beat for her paper. She's in Cleveland. And Tom Friend continues from San Diego.

Good morning all.

John, considering what we just heard from Tom Friend about the orbit of influence around LeBron James, what do you make of this apparent end of his career, the decisions that have been involved in it?

JOHN LUCAS, FORMER CLEVELAND CAVALIERS HEAD COACH - Well, you know, the first thing is that having a son in high school sports and playing sports is a rebound -- look at the rules again and re-evaluate what we're doing. Some of the rules are archaic based on what we have as athletes go up the system. Obviously there was a rule violation.

But in the summer, there are a certain set of rules and in the fall there are a different set. And when I talk to young pro players, most of them come from single-family homes. They don't have the strong background as Tom was talking about. But they do have some familiar support systems. And I think in this particular case, we built up people at a young age to tear them down.

And I think in this case he is clearly wrong in the violation of the rule, but if he returned the product, I don't understand where the -- has any effect on the outcome of the basketball game for him. An example, I think the kids on his school's team gets hurt because now nobody goes and sees St. Vincent play, whereas all of the colleges and pro teams possibly went to see them. All 12 or 13 players on his team had chances to get scholarships based on watching LeBron, so they all can't get LeBron James, but the other kids could get a chance to get an education.

LEY- Susan, your colleague, Tim Rogers said something Friday on ESPNews. He said, you know, there are adults that want this kid to fail. Do you see that in the circus around this youngster?

SUSAN VINELLA, CLEVELAND PLAIN DEALER- Yes. Tim has said that to me before, too. I'm not sure if I agree with that. I guess there are people out there, they've heard so much of LeBron James now, and I've gotten comments though, stop writing about him, or I'm sick of hearing about him. I'm not sure if people want him to fail, but it is unfortunate. He has been built up, and this sort of atmosphere of entitlement has been around him since probably two years ago, the Adidas ABCD camp when he really broke out.

So I think he's been given a lot of things. Whether he knew when he went into that store it was wrong. Whether he took those, I don't know. I have not spoken to LeBron. He's declined comment. But I do know he has received a lot of things -- shoes. I mean he had -- it was widely reported that he gave away shoes and gear at school at lunch time one day because he got so much free stuff. He just didn't want it or he couldn't wear it. So I believe he's become accustomed to that, and in this case it just happened to get out.

LEY- Well, try and give me a dollar figure. How much money is there that has been generated by the LeBron James celebrity? Here is a school that is now playing basketball around the country asking for, in some cases, five-figure guarantees, ticket prices have been raised, games on pay-per-view. Is there a number at the bottom of this?

VINELLA- I can't give you a bottom figure. The school is a private Catholic school and they have declined to share those numbers with us. I do know they receive appearance fees when they travel to games like they did in L.A. and Philadelphia for between $10,000 and $15,000. They have a deal with Time Warner Pay-Per-View where they would get a portion of the profits from that.

I mean, their 50/50's at their basketball games generate $2,800, $3,000, in that area, for the winner. So there is a lot of money being made. And I think Gloria is aware of that, and I think there's a little bit of resentment or anger on that part, that so many other people are making money off her son and he's not getting any.

LUCAS- But Bob, I think that's what's going on now with young athletes that are coming up. It used to be that we wanted them to fit into a box. And now they're saying because of rap music, because of new cultures and new things, and because they are now being privy to how much money has been generated by amateur sports, how much money is being generated, that they want -- they want to be the part of it. I noticed when I heard about ESPN having the games on pay-per-view TV and the coverage, I said, hey, this is getting to be -- like this guy is a star and he isn't even a star yet.

VINELLA- Yes, I agree, Coach Lucas. I think the sentiment I've heard from some people is why not just wait another month or two or three until you're done with your high school career? You know, why not give him the Hummer in March instead of December? You know, why not accept jerseys in March or April instead of January. So I think there's some puzzlement of, that eventually he's going to get his reward, his earnings, and some just question why it had to come now.

LEY- Well, Tom, you've got...

FRIEND- Gloria James, you talk about her being upset. I mean, I was there in the gym one day when you're talking about a sound system being tested. You're talking a sound system that would have lit up Dodger Stadium in that gym over in St. Vincent-St. Mary, and she just stormed off. Who paid for this sound system? My son did. There's a lot of anger that way. But then you look at the other side of it. There have been kids making money for their schools for years. I mean, John Lucas, when you were at Maryland, what did you drive? I mean, Isiah Thomas drove a Gremlin when he was at Indiana. I mean, does that entitle this kid to go out and get a car like that? I mean, he should have known that, you know, these are the rules. Kids have been abiding by rules for years.

LUCAS- Well, and I think that's what's happening in sports and our society, is that we have a little bit of going on fighting with authority. And I think that's the problem. The person that's the problem in this is the commission. The commissioner of the high school sports says that the replica jerseys are going to be the problem and now not the Hummer. I think it puts him in a very ridiculous situation, because one is violation, the other isn't.

LEY- Well, Tom, if they have an investigation, or Susan, whoever may feel better equipped to answer this, if they have an investigation, what else might they find?

FRIEND- Well, I don't know. I mean, you got to look at, you know, he's been getting sneakers that say L.J. 23 on them. Now Adidas, his school is an Adidas school. But how come the other kids don't have their numbers and their initials on their shoes? I mean, this has been going on.

LEY- Well, the answer is they are not to about the sign a $20 million contract with either Nike or Adidas. I mean, that's a fairly obvious thing. But that's just -- lurking at the corner of the story are two companies willing to make him an instant multimillionaire before the NBA will?

VINELLA- You know, and I spoke to someone from Adidas a couple of days ago, and he privately said to me, you know, I think Adidas in some way is willing to share some of the blame for everything, this circus atmosphere, and everything that's come around James and this entitlement, and this King James. I mean, it was Adidas, I think, who first dubbed him King James at the ABCD camp in July. He walked out at a press conference and it said King James on his t-shirt. His mom wears a King James t-shirt. His quote "inner circle" or handlers, they wear King James t-shirts. So this could...

FRIEND- And how, Susan, how does he have two cell phones, one from Nextel and one from Verizon and a Motorola pager when his mom doesn't have a job? He doesn't have a job? How do these kids get these things?

VINELLA- I've been getting e-mails and phone calls from people asking those same questions and, you know, again, I have not -- we have requested to speak with Gloria. We've requested to speak with LeBron. I've been trying to get in touch with LeBron's attorney for a few days. He has not returned phone calls.

So I can't answer those questions. But those are the kind of questions that people are asking. And I think this Hummer was the beginning. I think Dick Vitale just said the other night that I was sort of the beginning of this nightmare, and I think Clair Muscaro, right or wrong, he has rules to enforce. And he looked into the Hummer deal, and then three days later after this whole -- you cannot capitalize on athletic fame by receiving money or gifts -- we must have written that by-law in our newspaper at least 10, 15, 20 times, and three days after he makes that ruling, he learns that apparently LeBron has received a gift.

And, you know, I can't speak for Clair, but he said to me, a rule -- we have a rule and we found that it was broken. And this...

LEY- Moving past the jerseys just for a second, John, on the bigger issue, though, of celebrity and impending wealth and all of the things that have been acting on this young man, if there is a finger to be pointed, who should it be pointed at?

LUCAS- Well, I think that one of the fingers should be pointed at is that in the whole structure of the system we -- there is going to be another LeBron James. You know, Moses Malone, he was going to be one. Then there was Kobe Bryant. Now it happens to be LeBron James. There is going to be another and there are going to be others, and they're going to have some formal education and a business sense that they're not going to let their kids happen -- the tendency that goes on all the time. And I know individual sports are different than team sports.

But we've got to continue to educate single-family homes, both parents, and not just put the ownership on the commissioner or the athletic directors of the schools and the coaches, but everybody has got to be -- continue to be educated, because we're asking 18-year-old kids to be responsible, and it just isn't going to happen.

LEY- Tom Friend, in one sentence, the chances of next LeBron James and his family learning something from this.

FRIEND- Impossible. These kids are living pro lives as children and they're going to continue to.

LEY- All right. We have to stop it there. Thank you so much. John Lucas, Susan Vinella, Tom Friend. Our thanks for joining us this morning on Outside the Lines. And we'll continue in just a second.