There was a time not so long ago when Mark McGwire looked like he might be done. He was battling injuries and missing a lot of games. In fact, in 1993 and '94, he hit a total of 18 home runs. In August of '94, I went out to Cleveland to do a "Sunday Conversation" with him. We were booked for a half hour, but Mark being Mark, we talked for an hour. Later that day, we ended up at the same place for lunch and Mark covered my tab. But, Mark being Mark, he had the waitress come over and say that the restaurant manager paid it.

Earlier this year, Mark and I filmed the "Sweet 62" SportsCenter commercial. He loved the idea of mocking the system that turns baseballs into million-dollar investment pieces. The agency had lines written for him, but he used his own words in the ad. He mentioned that he appreciated that I wanted to talk to him back when a lot of people thought he was on the decline. He said, "You were there at a tough time." He hugged me -- for real.

That's Mark McGwire to me. There is no facade with him. He's the same guy he always was.

But his failures have made him successful. He has learned from them and is very open about sharing what he has learned. Sometimes he may even reveal too much of himself, but he can't help it. He's honest.

If there is someone else hidden in Mark McGwire, I'd be surprised. And if Norman Rockwell were still painting baseball players, he'd be painting Mark McGwire. --Dan Patrick

***

Dan Patrick: So, you kissed Helen Hunt.

Mark McGwire: Yeah.

DP: And you kissed the Pope's ring.

MM: What else can a man ask for?

DP: If you could do one of them again, and God is listening to your answer, which one would it be? Helen Hunt's lips or the Pope's ring?

MM: I'd take both.

DP: Oh, stop it! You can't. You get one.
MM: I get one. I'd definitely do the Pope again. Yeah. I'd like to spend more time with him.

DP: So Helen Hunt gets blown off, just like that?

MM: (Laughs) I think Helen Hunt would take the Pope over me.

DP: You've met Bruce Springsteen, the Pope. What else outside of baseball will you tell your grandchildren about? You've had so many memories.

MM: All the people I have met from the other parts of the entertainment business, it's just sort of sinking in now. It just blows you away. I was at the premiere of The Thin Red Line, and Sean Penn came over and pulled me aside. I was shocked to think he would even want to talk to me.

DP: Do you realize what your life has become? Imagine if someone told you five years ago, "Wait until 1998. You won't be able to leave your house." Here it is the spring of '99, and you basically can't go out and do anything, right? You're a captive of your own success.

MM: That's if I want to be, and I don't. People know where I am right now. There are a bunch of kids who live near me, and they've been really great. They come over, knock on the door, and we talk. They want autographs and stuff. It's cute. People have been fantastic. The perception of what happened last summer ... People are walking around with smiles on their faces, talking about baseball. It means a lot because I had something to do with it.

DP: Are you tired of you?

MM: (Laughs) The thing I am most tired of is this: If I don't do something, or if I don't play in a game, they always seem to mention my name anyway. And I think, "You know, there's a newspaper there, and people can read the box score the next day to see what I did or if I didn't play." Another thing I don't understand is why photographers take so many photos every day of the same thing. I want to know what they're doing with all those pictures.

DP: Just you at BP or walking off the field ...

MM: It's the same stuff every day. I can't tell you how many photos people have clicked off since the start of spring training. I just think, "What are they going to do with that?" Their libraries must be huge, you know.

DP: Maybe there's no film in the cameras.

MM: I don't know! It's a good seat for the game, though.

DP: Yeah, they couldn't care less about you. It's all for the seats.

MM: Even though I talk about how tough it is to go out, and it is, I do appreciate the positive impact I have had on people's lives, whether it's for child abuse or divorced parents or just for the great game of baseball. Like I said, people are walking around with big smiles because of last year.

DP: Do pitchers ask for your autograph during the season?

MM: Oh, sure.

DP: Guys who served up home runs to you?

MM: Yeah. I'm sure they have.

DP: Is it a situation where you go back to your locker and there's a bunch of things for you to sign, but you don't know where they're going?

MM: No. Guys are pretty good about it. They usually ask me personally. And I usually sign on the last day of a homestand. Same thing on the road.

DP: Who asked for autographs last year?

MM: Oh, almost everybody. I mean ... I don't think I ever signed more autographs in my life.

DP: Did Greg Maddux ask for an autograph?

MM: I just signed some autographs for him. It was a pretty cool photo of him pitching against me.

DP: What happened on that at-bat?

MM: I don't know.

DP: Maybe that's why he wanted that one signed. He can tell people, "Here I am, striking him out." (Both laugh)

MM: Well, he's done that! But whether it's for them or somebody else, or a charity, just about everybody has asked for an autograph.

DP: Are you friends with pitchers?

MM: Sure. Why not? They just do something different. I can't say I'm best friends with any of them, but I am cordial with a few guys who pitch.

DP: Give me some guys who you would consider friends.

MM: Roger Clemens. Randy Johnson. Robb Nen. Those are three pretty good friends.

DP: What would a typical conversation be? Baseball theory?

MM: No. The times I've been around those guys we've just talked baseball in general. About what has been happening recently, or some moves that have been made. That's about it. I've never talked about times I faced them. All three of them get me out more than I get them. (Laughs)

DP: The thing is, though, you could go 0-for-10 against any one of them, with 10 strikeouts, and then hit a 450-foot homer.

MM: Right.

DP: And it crushes them because they know that's all people talk about. It's like Randy Johnson. I don't know what your batting average is against him but it's probably not too good.

MM: Yeah.

DP: But you hit one of the longest home runs ever off him. And that's what people, I'm sure, bring up to him.

MM: Yeah, I bet they do. But in the back of my mind I know he gets me out a lot. As a hitter, though, when you're facing the top-notch guys, you can't worry about how often a guy gets you out. I have to concentrate on the ball. Sometimes guys might get you out more because you don't pick it up well. I had a rough time early in my career against Roger Clemens. But my last few years in Oakland, I started seeing his ball a bit better. It goes in cycles, really.

DP: Can you joke with a pitcher about homering off him?

MM: I've never done it. But if I'm in a conversation with someone I've faced, and he starts joking around, I'll play off it.

DP: If you could bat .400 or hit 70 homers again, which would you take? Which is a truer test of being a great hitter?

MM: Wow. The truer test? I'd have to think .400 would be a true, true test. When it gets later in the season, and you're hitting .395, you basically have to get two or three hits a game for your average to move up one or two points. That right there surpasses hitting 70 home runs by a mile.

DP: Have you thought about this? You could have an off year and hit 50.

MM: What a bummer.

DP: Isn't it?

MM: Well, that's what I expect of myself. But that's not really an off year.

DP: But it will be perceived that way.

MM: Unrealistically, yeah. If people think 70 is going to be easy or 60 is going to be easy ... for 37 years, people tried to break the 61 barrier and all of a sudden, it's broken twice. Now they're talking about breaking 60 like it's nothing. They even treat 50 like it's nothing. You know, only 17 guys have ever hit 50 home runs in a season. Ever. And only four guys have hit 60. For people to sit back and assume it will happen, it's not realistic. What happened last year might never happen again.

DP: How many would you have given up to have played in the postseason?

MM: I wouldn't give up any of them, because they all had something to do with our success. Putting runs on the board.

DP: Let's say you could trade them in? Hypothetically. People look back and remember that Maris hit 61 and the Yankees won the World Series. They're going to look back and see that Sammy made the wild card and you didn't make the postseason, which is why he ran away with the MVP vote.

MM: Right. I guess I would trade some in but how many? We only finished 6 1/2 games behind Chicago.

DP: The perception of being a winner, I know, is important to you.

MM: It's important to everyone. That's why we play. I was spoiled. I was on a winner at a young age, at a point when I didn't understand what the game of baseball was all about. Now that I appreciate and love the game so much, it would be a totally different feeling to win it. I hope I get a chance to do that, especially now that I play in the best city in America in terms of fan support.

DP: What would you like to bring to Missouri from Southern California?

MM: Oceanfront property.

DP: Put it in your next contract. "You know, I would also like some oceanfront property in St. Louis."

MM: (Laughs) Sure!

DP: Rock stars demand certain M&Ms in their dressing rooms. You just want oceanfront property. Makes sense.

DP: What is your favorite Jose Canseco story?

MM: I think the time he got caught speeding down in Florida and he was using rocket fuel in his car. That was hilarious. You know? Rocket fuel?

DP: And we're not talking about Clemens here.

MM: Yeah.

DP: He's a different guy. Would you say he stands out among all the guys you have had as teammates?

MM: There've been a lot of those guys. Him and Rickey Henderson. Dave Henderson. Dennis Eckersley. All different in different ways. They all had their growing-up periods. It's just that when Jose was doing his growing up, we were going to the World Series all the time and it was very magnified.

DP: Were you disappointed that Madonna chose Jose instead of you?

MM: She probably didn't know who the hell I was! (Laughs) But if she wants to give me a call now, that would be all right.

DP: Well, yeah. I'm sure she knows who you are now. So dating's a problem because of who you are now?

MM: Yes. It's tough to do now.

DP: The mind games of "Why does this person like me?"

MM: Yes. It's a tough task. I just don't ... I'm very careful.

DP: You're kind of quiet on this subject.

MM: (Laughs a little) Well, there's not much else to say. I'm very careful. It's tough for me to trust people. Hopefully, some day I will meet somebody.

DP: Do you think you'll have to wait until you are out of the game?

MM: I don't know. I hope not.

DP: It would be wonderful to be sharing this with somebody.

MM: Exactly. But you know what? The greatest thing I have going for me is that I share this with my son. That means more to me than anything.

DP: You've made it tough for a lot of us fathers. A lot of us can't live up to what you're doing for your son. So when our sons say, "Mark McGwire lets his son on the field," I mean, I can take my son to SportsCenter, but it just doesn't have the same feel to it.

MM: (Laughs) But if you had your son standing behind you while you were doing SportsCenter ...

DP: My bosses wouldn't allow that.

MM: He could stand behind you doing little hand signals and waving.

DP: We don't need that. We just don't need that. Has your idea of what a role model is changed? From when you were a rookie to now?

MM: A role model is a person you respect. He tries to live his life the right way so people can learn from it. That's what I have done to improve my life. Because of last year I've been tagged with the role model thing. Children and adults are looking at me. But I've brought up some issues that are very touchy. I don't think many athletes have brought them up. A divorced man who has a great relationship with his ex-wife and her husband, for instance. And the issue of child abuse. It's got a lot of attention because of what I went through last year. People say, "He's a real person. He does something other than just play baseball." I think they respect that.

DP: Do you think that you, Sammy and the Yankees have covered up a lot of the blemishes that are still in baseball? The problems with the game?

MM: I think we did a pretty good job of that. You can't forget what Roger Clemens did and what Kerry Wood did, either. Obviously, there are some problems. Hopefully, we won't have to deal with serious labor problems in 2001. It's going to be a touch-and-go thing. That's my opinion. The game of baseball is back on top, though. I sure hope the owners and we, the players, can get something going before 2001.

DP: What does Kevin Brown's contract do to the game of baseball? What do the payrolls of the Orioles, Yankees and Dodgers do to baseball?

MM: My personal opinion is that nobody is worth that much money. I'm not worth the money I am making right now. But you know what? The market dictates it. And there's nothing we can do about it as players. But when is enough going to be enough? What's going to happen when Griffey and A-Rod, two of the game's best players, become free agents? What's Seattle going to do? We could realistically see a guy sign a contract for $125 million or $150 million. Which I think is absolutely ridiculous. But if the market says that's the price, some owner's going to pay it. What can you say?

DP: Does baseball need a salary cap? Or should there be salary police?

MM: I don't know what the criteria would be for all that, but I think there has to be some place where it's got to stop.

DP: You know there are teams right now that have no chance of winning. And they can't go out and afford a $60-70 million payroll. The A's aren't going to win the World Series. The Royals. The Twins. It's not going to happen for them anymore. Is that bad for baseball?

MM: That's not good, but it's been like that for baseball for a long time. Now it's just emphasized because of the big salaries. If you think there aren't going to be problems in 2001, then you're in outer space somewhere. I think everybody is concerned about it. You have to be concerned about it.

DP: It scares me as a baseball fan.

MM: It should. There has to be some kind of solution that makes everybody happy. I don't know what it is right now.

DP: If you really want to save baseball ...

MM: (Laughs quietly) What's that?

DP: ... come up with some sort of salary plan. Then you'll really be a hero.

MM: Oh, great. But I'm not a lawyer!

DP: Forget the 70 home runs. That's nothing. Save the game!

MM: Yeah, right!

DP: Save the game from itself!

MM: I'll leave that up to the lawyers.

DP: Give me the craziest story you have of a woman throwing herself at you this past year.

MM: I haven't had any.

DP: Stop it!

MM: For some reason I don't have any crazy women stories.

DP: You don't get phone numbers slipped to you through ...

MM: Not that much.

DP: But it's happened though?

MM: Yeah, but nothing that's crazy.

DP: What have you used as an alias?

MM: (Laughs) I can't tell you.

DP: You're not going to use it again.

MM: I might have to go back to it.

DP: If you need help with another alias, I can give you one.

MM: Harry Callahan.

DP: Harry Callahan was your alias? Why Harry Callahan?

MM: Oh, I love Clint Eastwood. Dirty Harry.

DP: Does Clint know you've used his alias?

MM: No. I haven't seen Clint in years. The last time was at the AT&T tournament in Pebble Beach.

DP: Are golfers athletes?

MM: Yeah. In their own right. That's a sport that not everybody can play, believe me. I have the utmost respect for golfers and what they do week in and week out to make a living. It's unbelievable.

DP: Pick your poison. You are playing Pebble Beach, the eighth hole along the ocean, and for your second shot, you have to carry the ocean. Or Randy Johnson, 3-2 count, bases loaded.

MM: I'd take Randy Johnson.

DP: You like your chances of doing something with Randy Johnson?

MM: I'll take my chances with Randy. (Laughs) The thing with baseball is that we just have to hit it between the lines. We don't have to deal with trees. We don't have to deal with sand traps. We don't have to deal with water. I like my chances better playing baseball.

DP: How far can you hit a golf ball?

MM: Into the 300s.

DP: I played with you once, and you won the long-drive contest. I think it was 332 up a hill on a rainy day.

MM: I went to a Titleist facility with my friend Billy Andrade. They have these things where they can show you ball speed. The average PGA golfer is 165 to 175 mph. I think Tiger Woods is pumping up there about 188. And I hit the 200 range. It was pretty cool.

DP: I saw Tiger taking batting practice with the Braves.

MM: How'd he do?

DP: They weren't showing where the balls were going. They just showed him swinging the bat. I don't think he has the same bat speed as he has club speed. Is there any parallel between a golf swing and a batting swing?

MM: Without a doubt. You have to be balanced from the get-go to hit a baseball or a golf ball. You have to keep your head still. You have to transfer your weight. When I'm on deck, I'm always doing that.

DP: In the on-deck circle, you practice your golf swing?

MM: Not really my golf swing, but with my batting swing. I'm a pretty good low-ball hitter. I think it's because I played so much golf as a kid. When I'm on deck, I always set my balance like I'm a golfer and then bring my hands up like a hitter. Everything is similar except that we have to try to hit a moving ball. Drive through it with your backside ... keep your head behind the ball ... extend as far as you can. It's very similar.

DP: So you have a better chance of taking Tiger Woods on the golf course than he has of taking somebody deep in baseball.

MM: I'd love to play him in golf.

DP: I think we could facilitate that. "Tiger, Mark. Mark, Tiger. Let's play!" I saw that he played Smoltz recently. He took John, but John is good.

MM: Yeah. Those Braves play all the time.

DP: What triggered child abuse as a cause for you? I know you had a friend who dealt with abused kids. But you grew up in a nice house with loving parents. And you love your son. It's not like you've been around it. What made you realize that this was your calling.

MM: I've been around people who have had serious problems in their lives because of the abuse. And I've been around children at these facilities who have been badly abused. There's just not enough awareness out there. It has really touched me. It's really tough to protect your children. There are a lot of weirdos out there. But if you can talk to your children about certain things that can happen or have happened to them, then they can talk about it. Especially if they've been touched in a way that they shouldn't have been, they need to know that it's okay to talk about it. Especially if they've been threatened to not talk. It's something I feel passionate about.

DP: How many times did you deal with these children and then could not wait to get home to hug Matt?

MM: A lot. A lot. I haven't seen him in four weeks. I was watching a video at a restaurant that happened to be of the home run. They put it on, and when I saw the pictures of him as the bat boy, I wanted to cry because I haven't seen him. It's tougher and tougher, because of how far I've come as a person and how far I've come as a father. I want to be with him and protect him from things. And to teach him the right way.

DP: It must be so difficult, not only with all of your travel, but also with the fact that you are a dad to a lot of children out there. So Matt is sharing his dad with other people's sons around the country.

MM: What makes it easier is that I have a wonderful ex-wife. Kathy is the best. She's very close to Matthew. They talk about a lot of things. More than he talks to me. This is how he's known his dad since the divorce, when he was 1 year old. He didn't understand what was happening at first, but now he knows he has a stepfather. Who is a wonderful man. And he has a father who loves him so much. And that is his way of life right now.

DP: Are you surprised at the number of athletes who get divorced?

MM: Not at all. It's a tough life. It's hard to find a woman who understands what we as athletes go through. And it comes down to the fact that these athletes get married at a young age. I recommend that they wait a few years, until they get to the big leagues and have a chance to see what the big leagues are like. Before they decide to settle down.

DP: Are you a stage mother during Matt's baseball games? Yelling and screaming? A nervous wreck?

MM: Absolutely not. You don't even know I'm there. I have a huge smile on my face. The most enjoyable thing I did this winter was watching him come so far as a young, little athlete playing basketball and baseball. I can see why my dad had so much fun watching his five boys do what we did.

DP: Has Matt gotten to that age of, "Dad, don't hug me or kiss me."

MM: Oh, not really. He loves it.

DP: He does? I thought he might be thinking it's corny by now.

MM: No, he doesn't mind. Not yet. I do it all the time in front of his friends. I have to let him know that stuff.

DP: What's the worst thing about being a kid who has a dentist for a dad?

MM: Nothing that bad. The best thing is that I appreciate my teeth.

DP: He gave you a toothbrush for Christmas, didn't he?

MM: Yeah. It's a new thing. I was joking with him at spring training about it: "It's not even out of the box yet."

DP: That present sure meant a lot to me, Dad.

MM: (Laughs) Yeah.

DP: What's the best thing about playing for Tony La Russa?

MM: He asks you to come to the park ready to play and to play hard every day. That's it. I think that's why I've enjoyed him so much. He's intense.

DP: He's not for everybody.

MM: Some people don't like it when he's intense, but come on! He is being paid a lot of money to do his best to put a team out on the field and to motivate guys to play well. He's entitled to that intensity.

DP: You turned down seven figures from a razor company to shave off the goatee. Was that superstition? Will it ever come off?

MM: Well, I'm not going to do something like that just for money. It miffs me that you don't see many baseball players with endorsement deals. I don't know why corporate America shies away from the baseball player. The major companies didn't call me this winter.

DP: So you'll keep the goatee?

MM: Yes.

DP: Are you superstitious?

MM: I shaved it off after the last game in 1992. We lost to Toronto in the playoffs. I haven't shaved it off since.

DP: You sound like you're superstitious.

MM: Well, I'm 35 now. If I shave it off, I look 20.

DP: The better to get more women!

MM: (Laughing.) So we're back to the woman situation.

DP: I'm trying to help you here. Just trying to help you find a woman. We'll start a 1-800-MARK McGWIRE line.

MM: Great.

DP: Explain to me what happened in Houston. You told me you gave away everything. But you had one item stolen last year.

MM: My cup, one I had since the minors. Didn't make it from the Houston locker room to the St. Louis locker room. So, somebody's got my cup.

DP: (Laughs) Ever wonder why somebody wanted your protective cup?

MM: I don't know. Hopefully, we won't see it for sale on the Internet.

DP: If we see it on the Home Shopping Network ...

MM: Oh, I'm going to buy it back. Yeah.

DP: I guess it's the kind of thing you don't want to give up. You kind of grow attached to it, don't you?

MM: Yeah. You're right.

DP: Did anything hurt last year? Something that was written that took some fun out of it.

MM: It's obvious. The androstene stuff. I don't think it hurt anything because they made something out of nothing. But the way the AP writer went about it, digging in my locker … and the way they did their investigative story, calling the IOC and the NFL. It came out like there was something wrong with it. Believe me, that stuff has nothing to do with the hand-eye coordination of hitting. If it did, there would be a lot more guys hitting 70.

DP: You almost go on automatic pilot for this question, don't you?

MM: Well, I didn't endorse it. I didn't promote it. It's just something that helped me through my workouts. Period. That's it. Everybody takes supplements when they work out. You need to. I don't know why they're spending so much time studying the stuff. It's going to be inconclusive.

DP: Even in a dream season, all that asterisk stuff came up.

MM: But that was from people who don't know anything about it. It's a waste of time to discuss. It's a dead issue.

DP: Are steroids prevalent in baseball?

MM: I have no idea. Drugs are prevalent in every walk of life.

DP: But looking at baseball players. They don't test for it. I know that Canseco lived under that shadow for years. People looked at his muscles and just said, "Jose takes steroids." I was curious.

MM: I know supplement use is talked about. Companies are making natural supplements that help your workout, help you get stronger naturally. So you don't have to use what you might want to call the steroid stuff that people think that athletes take.

DP: The topic bothers you, doesn't it?

MM: Yeah it does. Everybody wants to shoot down something. They don't think somebody could do what I did. I hit 70 home runs because God gave me good hand-eye coordination, and my parents gave me good genes.

DP: How important is good eyesight to being a good athlete?

MM: Everything. I have poor eyesight, but I see 20-10 with my contacts. If you saw with my natural eyesight, you'd be amazed I was a ballplayer.

DP: But you're not going to wear glasses?

MM: I did when I was younger.

DP: And you looked like a dork?

MM: No. I still wear them now. I get the designer stuff.

DP: Okay. You get the big, black horn-rimmed glasses.

MM: No, I never had the Kurt Rambis look. Or the Hanson Brothers.

DP: I asked Karl Malone if you or he had the better body. He said, "Well, he hasn't seen me naked, and I haven't seen him naked."

MM: (Laughs) Oh, God!

DP: I just like to make you privy to this stuff. So you want to play golf with Tiger, and you want to see if your body is better than Karl Malone's.

MM: No. You're saying that. I'm not saying that.

DP: But I can arrange that one, too.

MM: That's okay. Set it up with Tiger, but the Karl Malone thing ...

DP: Some guys who you would pay to bring your son to see play.

MM: Larry Walker. Roger Clemens.

DP: Why Walker?

MM: He does everything right. From running to hitting to fielding. Ken Griffey does it all, too. Also a guy who is not playing anymore, Kirby Puckett.

DP: Why Kirby?

MM: Well, in 1987 I saw Reggie Jackson just bust his butt on every play. Grounding out or popping up, no matter what, you saw him running hard on every play. Every play. But then I started watching Kirby Puckett. Talk about a guy giving it all every day. He was just amazing to watch.

DP: Reggie told me that when he would strike out, he wanted to make it great theater. He said, "I am just as exciting when I strike out as when I homer." You don't quite have that same theatrical flair when you strike out.

MM: I always use the strikeout as a learning process. I'm gonna do it over 100 times a year. It's a given. And I have a short compact swing, and Reggie's was real long. The way he swung was almost like he did the splits at home plate.

DP: Did you hear from Hank Aaron last year?

MM: I met him at the Players Choice Awards.

DP: Can great home run hitters relate better to what you did?

MM: We didn't talk. It was more in passing. But I am amazed he did what he did for so long, so consistently. He never hit 50. That amazes me.

DP: Is it a goal to hit 700 home runs? Will you play to hit 700?

MM: I don't know. I couldn't say. The first realistic number is 500.

DP: You'll get that. You already have 457. And you can dream ...

MM: I'll say this to you. For me to reach Hank Aaron's record, I would have to get on a fast horse right now.

DP: Well, if you put together a few more 70s ...

MM: (Cackles) Okey dokey!

This article appears in the May 17, 1999 issue of ESPN The Magazine.